Ellie Cole's Couch - Austin transcript
00:00 Intro
Ellie Cole:
Hi everyone. I'm APM Ambassador Ellie Cole. Today we'll be exploring the topic of breaking down stereotypes and stigma when it comes to employment.
Too often, harmful stereotypes and systemic barriers prevent people, whether it's people with disability or Indigenous Australians, from accessing the employment opportunities they deserve. Creating a more inclusive and diverse workforce doesn't just benefit the individuals. It can enhance business performance and foster social inclusion. By focusing on education and raising awareness, we can build empathy, understanding, and help break down these barriers.
Joining me today is Austin, National Diversity and Inclusion Coordinator from APM Employment Services. Austin thank you so much for coming in today. Are you able to start by introducing your name, your age, and your occupation at APM?
Austin:
So, my name is Austin Bruton. I'm 44 in December, so 43 years old. I'm National Diversity and Inclusion Coordinator at APM. Been here coming up six years actually, next Monday. My job is pretty much, predominantly, working with First Nations people in the Workforce Australia contract, but I also support other business units when they do reach out. So, our Disability Employment Services unit as well.
Ellie:
Let's just start off with about where you grew up. Were you born in Australia?
Austin:
I was born in Melbourne. Grew up in Geelong for the first three years of my life. And then we moved to Brisbane, and was there, did a couple years of primary school there, and then over to Perth, so wherever dad was playing, obviously playing and coaching for the Perth Wildcats, back then, and ended up settling here.
I've done all my high school here. Went over to the US for college, had a basketball scholarship at Indian Hills Community College. Came back to Australia and jumped into youth work. But I tried a lot of different jobs along the way, and I think for me, it was about having some work ethic and some discipline, and, you know, as long as whatever you're doing you enjoy it and get the most out of it, and that's kind of, yeah, I guess got me to where I am today.
02:02 Studying in the US
Ellie:
So, when you were over in the US playing basketball, I understand that you obviously had to study as well, it's part of being an athlete.
Austin:
Absolutely.
Ellie:
I've seen a lot of athletes go over to the US college system, and there's a very high standard of work ethic in terms of having to really apply yourself academically, but also having to really apply yourself physically to the sport that you're over there on scholarship. How did you find managing that? I'm sure that, you know, there was an amazing support from your basketball team that you were working with. But, as someone who said you weren't necessarily a “brainiac”, how did you find that?
Austin:
It was like basically jumping in the deep end for me. I was 17 years old, and if I was to tell my younger self, it probably would have been better to go over a little bit older, because obviously in America, you know, I'm with 20-21 year olds, that have kind of ‘McDonalds All-American’, been there, done that. And here’s this little guy from Perth, Australia, five foot nine, playing at the number one junior college in America.
So, the balance between study and basketball is an interesting one. You have to actually stick your head in the books, because if you don't stay eligible, you don't get to play. And then you’re treated like a professional athlete. So, you're talking six days a week, full-on conditioning, weights, playing, but once the season starts, it's just, like, basketball and you're travelling around and, you know, you get treated like a bit of a rockstar.
03:21 Working through discomfort
Ellie:
Do you find that your experience of being in such an uncomfortable environment back when you were in college, do you find that you really embrace that now? Because if I look back over my athletic career, a lot of it I was very uncomfortable, but I kind of really thrive off that now. And I think it's hard. It was hard at the time. It's really hard to see the benefits at the time, but looking back and reflecting on it, I'm so glad that I did that.
Austin:
Absolutely. I think when you put yourself in uncomfortable situations, you actually don't know what you can accomplish. And I think, you know, that's what I try and pass on to people that I work with now, that might be in situations that if I can do it, you can do it. It doesn't matter where you come from. Everyone's got inner strength and a shining light. And it's about harnessing those things and, you know, having people, kind of, support you along the way, because you can't do this stuff on your own, and not everyone has the support stuff, but you’re right, I do thrive in uncomfortable situations.
And it's been like that for me. Always felt like, you know, the underdog, I had the underdog status anyway. So, I kind of like that tag. But I also like to achieve, so it's almost like, go out and give it a go and if it doesn't work, you get back up, dust yourself off, and try again.
04:26 Creating opportunities at APM
Ellie:
I think that's what's so remarkable about your story in particular. You know, the people that you work with, the people who, you know, you're trying to find employment for, although you might not have lived experience of being First Nations, you understand what it's like to be in an uncomfortable environment, about pushing to get the best out of yourself, and I think that's the bit that you would really harness when you're working with people at APM, right?
Austin:
I guess, where we started to focus on was, you know, cohort-specific activities for training programs where I could engage with employers that actually cared about people, and wanted to make a real meaningful change, and then getting some RTOs involved where we could actually, you know, tack on some tickets if needed or whatever.
And it was just about building confidence, resilience, and showing up every day. It didn't matter about where you came from, what your background was, whether you could read and write, it was just about coming.
Ellie:
And what do you love most about your role there?
Austin:
I guess, creating opportunities for people that probably wouldn't have happened otherwise, and then seeing them thrive in that opportunity and go on to bigger and better things. I did a program - I think we had 17 people, and what we did is, once I understood what the challenge is for the individuals - you're talking about, seriously, low learning literacy, numeracy challenges, so it's like, how do you expect to get through a theory book, because it's not school.
And if they're showing up every day, and the RTO was amazing, and we were able to do practical training, so, get rid of the theory, as long as you can understand the safety components, and the certain things you need to. And they ended up getting a kitted out first aid room. So, you're talking about measuring carpet squares, doing marking on the walls, all that stuff. So, they got refurbished, and that's how we ticked them off on some of the qualifications, which I thought was pretty special.
06:08 Employment challenges for First Nations Australians
Ellie:
Now in your experience, I know this might not be an easy question just to answer point blank, but what are some of the biggest challenges that you've seen with Indigenous Australians when they're trying to secure employment?
Austin:
Well, I would have to firstly touch on, it's the longest living culture in the world, so you're talking like 65,000 years. And, again they've got their own traditions and practices and they're not westernised. It's not getting up, some of them might not adapt by time, mobile phones, digital skills on a computer, and all that stuff. So, you've got that already. So, if you're talking about doing modules on a computer or a bunch of inductions, then you're already behind the eight ball, and then you've got intergenerational trauma, you've got criminal history. And this is just some experiences that I've had dealing with people.
So, if you're going to sit there and, you know, do something and have to get on a computer, but you don't know how to use a computer, then that's really difficult. And I think, being able to give those people the same chances because, you know, and I do understand some employers do have requirements which are not negotiable, so that's that, but there's also some employers that can open the door and kind of brush those requirements, as long as people are meeting them, and I think that's the way.
The challenge is getting rid of the non-essential requirements, you know, changing your ads, having mentorship programs, outreach programs, where you’re actually going out to the people and having Indigenous people that are actually leading that, I think is key. The more that we do that, I think the better, and then further along we go - the gap’s never going to be closed, you know that’s clear, but I think there's people out there that want to be supportive and continue to make change. And I think that's the way that the difference is going to be made for the younger generations coming up.
07:50 Sharing the responsibility
Ellie:
I've seen, certainly in my experience as someone with a disability, the importance of having representation, particularly in leadership roles and, you know, and the same for our First Nations Australians. But, I think there's a fine balance between putting someone from an underrepresented group into a leadership role, but also ensuring that they don't feel like they have a responsibility to represent an entire cohort of people at the same time, and empowering, like trying to empower everybody within that underrepresented group.
How do you strike that balance with Indigenous Australians?
Austin:
That is a very good question, Ellie. I mean, and this is the thing, there is such thing as cultural load, so if you're talking about an Aboriginal person’s perspective, it's not just coming to work, so you might be in this role in your workplace, but then you go home and then you've got all these other responsibilities you know, and then it can't be the expectation that whenever an Aboriginal person comes in then this Aboriginal worker of ours has to deal with it. I think that's wrong. I think everybody should be dealing with it.
Ellie:
Same.
Austin:
Yeah, and that's the learning. But, the other side of that comes is having that balance and making sure that they feel supported and comfortable enough to take the step up and be in that leadership role. And I think I take huge pride in empowering our Indigenous consultants. So, I've got an informal projects team that I catch up with every fortnight and kind of, I was really lucky having Tracy and Judy as my leaders at APM, they've kind of got me to a level that I didn't think that I'd be able to get to, but it's actually having that belief, and the backing with our teams, our state managers, and our regional managers, to be able to try these things in their regions that they want, that are tried and tested.
Because, once you got tried and tested workshops, then you let your First Nations people run those. And I think that that's how they feel a part of it. And then once they understand how to do that, then they can then deliver their own activities.
09:36 Employment challenges for First Nations Australians with disability
Ellie:
Now, you've spoken a lot today about opportunity and making sure that everyone has the same opportunity as the person that's next to them. I know as a person with a disability, I've always wanted to see people with disability have the same opportunities as able-bodied people, and we've spoken today about Indigenous Australians having the same opportunities. But what if you're an Indigenous Australian that also has a disability, so you're part of two underrepresented groups. What are the challenges there?
Austin:
Well, that's another layer on top of the challenges that I think that I've mentioned earlier. And if I can think about a couple of Indigenous people that I've worked with, I feel like they are absolutely thriving. You know, answering your ESAt, your JobSeeker assessment at Centrelink, it depends how you answer those questions, and I think often we get into this tick box thing where you’re going in there, and you think you're going to be at a disadvantage if you answer these questions a certain way.
And the reality is that you're actually not, and there would probably be a better way to be able to service you if you answer that, but there's this shame factor in the Indigenous culture where it's like, “I'm not going to answer the questions like that because I'm not going to be X, Y, and Z.”
So, there was a fella that I remember, who stands out. His name's Ashley. And he was rocking up to a program, he was five minutes away, and I was running this thing out of Clontarf Academy, and it was for two weeks, and he was late, like probably the first four days. And I pulled him to the side, I was like, “come on man, like seriously, you got to tell me why you're late, you're the closest one that lives here, and the last one getting here.” And he looked at me and was like, “Austin, I’ve got a sleeping problem.”
Basically, what he told me was he grew up in the care system, didn't have no real connection to anyone, you know. So already, you know, me, obviously working alongside the Department of Child Protection and in that space, I kind of have an understanding about people that have moved around in the out-of-home care service. Next thing I said was, “well, I'm going to challenge you this - that I want you to be on time every day for the rest of the workshop.” And he was the first one there, which blew me away. So, straight away that taught me that, you know, maybe he's never had somebody kind of pull him up, you know?
So anyway, Ashley did that. Long story short, I had a conversation with an Aboriginal-owned Security Company. He then went through Cert II in Security. He now looks after over 250 cameras and CCTV in Fremantle Square, and they absolutely love him. So, you're talking about someone - I tried to find the happy medium because I knew he liked gaming.
Ellie:
Yeah. He sits and watches the screens!
Austin:
I knew he liked gaming, and then I knew that, you know, maybe computers and after a few conversations with the general manager, and yeah, you know, that's what we were able to find him.
12:09 How businesses can better support First Nations people
Ellie:
We've spoken a lot about the challenges for Indigenous Australians who want to enter into the employment space, but what about businesses? What can businesses do better to help support those processes, to have more Indigenous and First Nations people working for them?
Austin:
I think, again, getting back to having some representation. I won't mention the name of the company, but I think we've come a long way with a company, and I'm talking about probably 6 or 7 meetings about this exact topic. And I asked them if they had cultural awareness training within their leaders, and if they've actually got an Indigenous person that can pick up the phone.
At the time, they mentioned that they weren't resourced enough to be able to do that. So, they've come back to us now, and some, and that's been amazing, because what they've done is they’ve listened to what we know that works, and I'm no expert, but I just know that what works and what doesn't work, and I think, you know, having those tough conversations about, does your team have cultural awareness training? Do you have Indigenous representation? So, if we've got somebody, that they can actually pick up the phone, and they would do a pretty good job where they're skipping through to the second stage of the process, like the video interview stuff, because that also can be a bit daunting if you've never had an interview before.
So, I think our side, APM, what we do a really good job is, you know, we can do all that stuff and tailor things with our Indigenous specialist contracts and our staff to have, you know, tailored things, interview techniques and styles, but that can only go so far. And without practicing that in a real setting with an employer, you're not going to know whether you're going to be successful or not.
But, I think those things, representation, cultural awareness training, and actually having people that want to come out and make a real difference, and actually following through and giving some people a go, adapting, you know, you've got principal carer parents out there that might not be able to work nothing but school hours. So, make a role that adapts within school hours, and then you've got Sorry Business as well, which can go on for no time frame, you know, and I think there should be permissible breaks, so to speak, in the workplace, which allows for all that stuff where people can come back and continue if they've lost somebody in their family and things like that.
So, it's having an understanding about the culture, and actually tailoring some jobs that actually fit those things, which there's no knock out factors. And I think that's how you make a real change, and a bit more of a difference. And if you're a business, that's what I’d encourage you to try and do.
14:28 Benefits of hiring First Nations Australians
Ellie:
Businesses and organisations are really beginning to understand the benefits of diversity and inclusion within their organisations. But for employment of First Nations Australians, what are some of the benefits that you've seen?
Austin:
Well, I think not only is it rewarding, so there's a sense of belonging and a sense of self, I think it's a sense of pride for someone, and obviously, sometimes what I've learned just from hearing from people, is sometimes your money is not your money, it's the family's money. So, there's also this thing where, “if I get a job, then I've got to take care of the whole family because that's the culture.” So I think, you know, being able to empower people where they can actually - you can give them the toolkit where, you know, that they can actually save for themselves and still achieve these things, and go buy a house and go buy a car, and still look after the family, is a big thing, and you can do that with employment. So, I think that's one of the benefits.
Employers, you know, there's incentives. We give - we've got government grants, wage subsidies that, you know, I think a lot of people actually don't know about. And if you're a small business, I think that is a huge thing, to be able to get up to $10,000 if someone's working a minimum of 15 hours. And I think that right there, it's not about the money, but that's what you can do to actually then build your own workplace and you can go and get, you know, move people on to further things where they're actually upskilling, and have your own tailored program within your organisation, which can then have a flow on effect.
15:56 The importance of cultural awareness and continued training
Ellie:
I think Australia's come a long way with cultural awareness around Indigenous Australians.
Austin:
Long way.
Ellie:
Like, I remember being in primary school and we never did any kind of ‘Welcome to Country’ or ‘Acknowledgment of Country’, and to see Australia really beginning to embrace the importance of that, I'm sure makes a huge difference. But I still feel like we have such a long way to go. How important do you think the training and awareness is for organisations? To keep that momentum going?
Austin:
I think it’s extremely important. I’d almost stick that at the top and, I think what I've been really fortunate about is, we've got a couple of Elders, I always try and engage with the local Elder, I think every program needs to be localised in the local area and giving that ownership to our local teams on the ground to go and source that if we can, is the first thing, because local people have a connection to their local Elders. That's just the way it is.
And I think that we do a very good job at APM at doing that. And I've even got one Elder who literally has travelled to every state, bar WA, but she'll be here in December, and delivered probably, you know, 30 plus workshops for us, for our First Nations participants, and I think that goes a long way in itself.
17:03 Suggestions for organisations getting started
Ellie:
So, if an organisation wanted to take the first step into employment of First Nations Australians, what advice would you give them?
Austin:
Just actually get out there and speak to local people, speak to Aboriginal people about how you can build your business. So I think, you know, and my understanding is you can't work with everyone, right? Because I don't think everyone has those pure intentions about putting the people first. But, you can go and ask the question and figure out what you can do, and ask Aboriginal people about what do they want? Because if you’re asking what they want, you've got a better chance of getting it right.
Ellie:
It’s not making assumptions.
Austin:
It's not making assumptions, no. And I think often there is these assumptions, “they don't do X, Y and Z” or something, but that's not actually coming from their understanding of what might have impacted them and their family. So, I think that's the way that things should be done, is if you want to do Indigenous programs, all that stuff, it should be led that way, or at least put in with those contexts where it comes from a cultural perspective, because with that, that means a lot more than what we are ever going to be able to do for them.
Ellie:
I think what a lot of businesses and organisations don't see in implementing those processes is the benefits that it can have to all of their other employment programs as well. You know, the way that you practice your hiring practices, and the way that you deliver your employment within your organisation, if you're tailoring it to specific people in mind, it can actually benefit everybody.
Austin:
It could benefit everyone. I think hiring policies, is what you just touched on, is a huge thing. Not doing it the same way that you might have done it in the past, and actually doing it a unique way. So, I often try to get companies to come out and speak to people in their own comfortable environment, which I think is huge. But I think businesses can also do that. With some businesses, having an Aboriginal person in there, or having multiple Aboriginal people working in there, can actually teach you a lot, because then you can learn about the culture, learn about the people, and go, “oh, this is actually, you know, it's great.”
Ellie:
Yeah. And it's so empowering for those that come through to APM. But it's also really empowering for those who work for APM. I've been fortunate to be able to speak to quite a number of people that work for APM, and it's exactly the same message. They're so empowered. They love what they do. They can really see the benefits to the community with the work that they do. And it's, so many nice stories to hear.
Austin:
That's the most rewarding part, I think, about working in the employment service space is you can have something that you've done many years ago that has an affect years later and only hear about it. I think the other way, and this was a non-Aboriginal person, but I got a phone call from a company that I did the only Perth North’s local jobs program, and I had a hard time filling this program. There was a lot of pressure, mind you, because we do live in a space where it's a lot of pressure, and you want to see things succeed. But, they actually told me that this individual is, had the day off work because they'd just been given keys to their first home that they'd built on their own. And, they’re still working in the same job, and they have their partner working for them. So, I think that's the cool bit, you know, like you might not know until later on, but I think having that employer actually pick up the phone that actually made my week, not just day.
Ellie:
That would’ve made my whole year! But I think the thing you also don't really realise is that that has a cascade effect to every single person in their, you know, family and their community as well.
Austin:
Family and the community, and if you've come from nothing and, you know, your whole family is kind of struggling day-to-day and you can light that fire and that one person grabs a hold of that opportunity, that might actually get the next person. And I think that's the beauty of employment, you know.
Ellie:
It's been interesting as, I suppose, in my background, being a Paralympian I've always been around very like-minded people, people with very similar stories, very similar drive in terms of representing Australia. But for me, it's been really special working with APM because I get to come in and speak to people like you and people who work for APM, who have so many different backgrounds, so many different stories, but the theme is very similar that comes through in that everyone does deserve the same opportunities.
Austin:
Yes.
Ellie:
And to be able to work with an organisation who share very similar values to what I do in enabling better lives, has been so incredible for me. I've loved being here for the last two days and speaking to people like you.
Austin:
That’s awesome.
Ellie:
So, I was equally excited to speak to you as well, but I think you have one of the coolest jobs ever.
Austin:
It's very, very cool. I'm very fortunate. I mean, I've got to travel right around the country, and work with our teams and meet people, you know, and find out what what's it like, what's a day in their life like, living out here and wondering what they do on a day-to-day. And, I think then trying to collaborate with community organisations and partners and stuff, and trying to tailor something that's going to benefit the individuals that we serve, and show that we're not just your general service provider, that we're, you know, we're really different. And we like to tailor, and actually meet people where they're at, and create opportunities, I think is a big thing. And it goes back to our motto, enabling better lives.
Ellie:
Thank you, Austin, so much for coming in today.
Austin:
Thank you so much. Was an absolute pleasure.
Ellie:
It was amazing to meet you and thank you for all the work you do at APM.